The Institute
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[00:00:00] Deanna Chapman: Hey everyone.Chat Sematary is back. I'm your host, Deanna Chapman. And today I am joined by Laura Di Girolamo, and we are talking all about the Institute, Laura, how are you doing?

[00:00:13] Laura Di Girolamo: I'm doing pretty good. Um, it's I'm I just ate, you know, nice late dinner. So I guess that's, I'm all ready to talk about The Institute I don't know why I thought those two things might be related, but I'm pretty good.

[00:00:28] Deanna Chapman: The Institute is one of King's more recent novels. I have hit 2019 here for this podcast. We're closing in, on being caught up. But for me, Just to dive right in. This one definitely gave me Firestarter vibes.

[00:00:46] Laura Di Girolamo: It's it also gave me, I know this is like backwards in a way, because stranger things is obviously inspired by Stephen King amongst other things, but like watch reading it. I used To like, Receiving K muscle. I just watched stranger things and it was like, oh, you know what? I haven't done in a while. Kids with telekinesis, let's do that.

It's been a bit, let's go back to that idea this shows doing it so well.

[00:01:10] Deanna Chapman: To be fair. It had been a bit and he still does it well.

[00:01:14] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah. I like nothing new about this book or nothing. Sorry about this book is new, but it's still so compelling. I'm like, oh, Kids his telekinesis in this sort of, I feel like I've seen this idea before a bunch of times, but it's so good because it's a Stephen King book and it's got all this like pathos and like friendship and like touching moments and like really cinematic beats.

And you're like, oh man, I got to see how that.

[00:01:42] Deanna Chapman: Yeah. And it's funny because the way that. Starts, you don't really get that feeling right away because we see a lot of. Tim Jamison story. And you're kind of like, okay, what is this going to be? And this was actually a reread for me. I somehow convinced the publicist to send me a copy back when it came out.

So I had read it out of order from my chronological reading and I had remembered the broad strokes of it. So revisiting it, I was like, oh, I forgot. This was how it started. So did the. Beginning of this book because it was quite a bit of time. It was like a fourth of the book I want to say is sort of focused on these other events that come full circle in the end.

Did it throw you off as to what this book was going to be about?

[00:02:29] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah, kind of, for some reason, I. It's not that long of a book. I don't think it's been a, it's been a while since I've, I mean, not a while I read it a year ago, but I remember, you know, a year ago it was not that long, even though the last year feels like a thousand years, but you know, I remember most of it pretty well.

I refresh my memory and re-read parts of it before this podcast. But yeah, I remember at the time thinking like, oh, is this going to be. One of those like really like slowly paced king novels where there's like 400 characters and we're with them during the minutia of their like, journey. Something like the stand, which is obviously way longer, but it, where you're just with the people the whole time and with their thoughts and in their head.

And I, for a while I thought it was going to be that type of book. And then it definitely was not, which is great. It's more of an ensemble kind of thing than like, oh, here's our hero. And we're with him. And then here's our other hero. And we're with them. This was more like, it was the protagonist. It was like a group of kids in the way that it kind of.

It is closer to that book than something like the stand where there's like a bigger, more serious adult arc and people coming together towards something.

[00:03:40] Deanna Chapman: The only thing that's sort of reminiscent of the stand is Luke's journey once he escapes, because he does all this, you know, like long distance traveling and that sort of thing. But yeah, I totally agree with you. And you know, this also. Takes place in a number of different states because of that particular event that happens.

And we'll get to that a little more, but, you know, we kind of start off with Tim leaving his job in Florida and he starts to head to New York city, but he gets sidetracked and ends up in do prey, South Carolina, which, you know, this is kind of new. Territory for king. He hasn't really played in that area too much.

Obviously you have some stuff set in Florida because he has a place in Florida and a lot of stuff said in Maine, as we all know, but it's always interesting to me when he kind of strays outside of these familiar places.

[00:04:38] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah, I mean, they're always like. For the most part, like small town Americana in like, you know, Florida's not the Midwest, but in a way it kind of is, but I'm also I'm in Canada. So a lot of the us is like a mystery to us. Like it's interesting reading Stephen King as a Canadian because you don't get a lot of the like cultural contexts sometimes.

Like they'll, they'll say something about. You know, over, down by what, what you might call it county. And you're like, what it felt like we don't have counties like it's and there's so many of them where you are, and it's just, there's, there's all these little references references to accents. And so on that sometimes I'm like what?

And I have to Google. Um, but yeah, he hasn't, he has specific locations that he goes to, but they're all sort of similar in a way in that they're, you know, it's never like. New York city or some big city where things happen to people anonymously. These are always sort of towns where stories are kind of interconnected.

[00:05:43] Deanna Chapman: Yeah, and it makes those stories much more personal. We also see Luke being kidnapped from Minneapolis and while they do ultimately end up in. You know, there's a good chunk of the story that takes place outside of that, because we have Tim's story. We have the kidnappings, and then we have the escape, which takes Luke out of Maine.

And. Even though it's set in Maine, it feels different than his other main novels because of the fact that it's not this small town story. It's very much we're inside a building and that's the main location for 50% of the book probably.

[00:06:26] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah, that's true. It could literally be anywhere right.

[00:06:31] Deanna Chapman: Yeah. And honestly, I don't even know if I caught on the first time around that they were in Maine until he escaped, because I was just like, oh, they took him to a facility and then, you know, it doesn't really specify exactly where it is until later. And I think because of. Anonymity you have, it just makes the story a little more interesting because you don't know what to expect since it's not the typical main setting for king.

[00:07:01] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah, the location is like, yeah, it doesn't, it could be set anywhere. It doesn't matter where, where the prison is. Cause it's, it's its own place. I guess it's almost like it being in Maine at the end is like a nod to be like ha yes, of course fans. This is, was ultimately set in me. And why would you ever doubt for a second, but

[00:07:23] Deanna Chapman: Yeah. Yeah, that that's very fair. And you know, king is also very good at putting kids through hell and he certainly does that here, but you know, to run down some of these kids, you have. Luke, who we've mentioned, he's sort of our main kid character. You have Calisha, Nick Avery comes into play. You have Iris.

And even though these kids are all going through the same thing, They're really only focusing on three or four at any given moment. And I think that was very smart, because like you said, this book is shorter than something like the stand or under the dome where we get a ton of characters, you get a whole town of characters and under the dome, you know, so it really felt like he wanted us to focus on these specific kids for a specific reason.

And, you know, the Institute reminded me a lot of the show. In Firestarter and because of the powers that these kids have, it reminds you of Carrie as well. So you have a lot of different elements at play here, and there's so much unpredictability if you will, because we don't quite understand just how powerful any of the kids are until later in the book.

[00:08:49] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah. And like parts of this book also reminded me of a non king thing where I don't know if have you read, uh, the Christmas.

[00:08:57] Deanna Chapman: I have not.

[00:08:58] Laura Di Girolamo: So the Chrysalis is a book.

written in the fifties, um, by John Wyndham, who's an English author and it's about, I can't believe they haven't like made this in-system CW like nonsense because it would be such a good it's all, it's all teenagers.

And like, two of them are like forbidden horny for each other. It's like, perfect. Uh, but it's similar to this in that it's about a group of children who later agents, a teenagers who are telecom. But, and they speak to each other and they all exist in different places, but they're, they're living in a, um, a dystopian post nuclear war earth.

It's gone back to like pioneer times and it's like very fundamentalist Christian. These kids are like, uh, they, they, I mean, anyone who's like a deviation from the norm, uh, like you have a mole in a place you shouldn't, or something is like an outsider and is like driven out of society. See, these kids are like, oh, we're not.

like the other people.

Uh, so they have to sort of hide their power and they do so pretty well until one little cute kid who has way more telekinetic power than the rest of them comes in and starts communicating with other people. Like on the other side of the world who are also telekinetic, and they've never been able to do that before.

Um, and then, you know, uh, sort of fallout happens with the community, but it, th the Institute reminds me a lot of that book because there is that idea of. The sort of child prodigy who has the skill that is that people are suffering for this skill, or these kids are in hiding and in the Institute they're being tortured.

And then later something similar happens to the kids in their Chrysalis. But I thought it was, it was, it was interesting to look at it that way, because there's. They're both sort of, and this happens in Kerry too. The idea of like telekinesis is like a preteen puberty thing, but there's like anomalies, like Avery in this book, but, uh, it's, they're, they're sort of analogies for, you know, pre puberty and like your mind sort of expanding and the kids in that book and the Chrysalis are from like, Sort of fundamentalist society.

That's very punished as anybody that they perceive as different. And the kids in that book make contact with like a more elite society. That's not going to punish them for who they are. And then that's a sort of similar arc as this book as well. So, and then, you know, that's also part of being a teenager.

You don't want to listen to what people have to say, and you're going to rebel against the norms and you're going to try. Over your brain up to like more ideas and knowledge and stuff like that. And at the same time, your hormones are raging. So all that stuff is happening. So it's always, it's he, Stephen King does come back to the idea.

I think it like in, in Kerry and in something like this, and I think it's an idea that's happened in other Saifai, you know, fantasy type novels, the idea of like, You know, you're, it's everything else about your body and your brain is changing. Why not? Also, you can suddenly do this. And like, Luke is like a genius.

So like it also probably started happening to him at an early age. I think if I remember correctly from the book, but, um, yeah, I just, I always think that's a cool idea too.

[00:12:07] Deanna Chapman: Absolutely. And I love that king. Doesn't give you all of the information as to, you know, why the kids are being taken, why the Institute is doing express. That information is sort of a slow trickle, and then they bring up, oh, we had to stop that bomber in this other country. And, you know, they were basically being used as weapons, which is, uh, Big reveal.

But at the same time, he doesn't spend too much time on it because these kids are in the middle of like planning their revolution. When we find out this information and you know, I want to talk about the setup of the Institute a little bit, because you have the front half, which is where all of the kids go after they've been taken and how they adjust to.

Everything at the Institute, they do run the experiments on them there, but it's the back half that you kind of don't want to go to because everyone who goes there is like never seen again. And then there's this other area in the back half where they put the kids whose minds. Completely broken and they can barely function.

They talk about like kids pooping in the hallway and it's just absolutely crazy because that too, they don't reveal all of that information right away. It's not like, Hey, we're at the Institute. Here's everything you need to know about it. It's like you find this out sort of, as the kids find it out,

[00:13:38] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah. Like I, that slow reveal is, is really creepy. And it's like, I mean, it's a good title because it's like, it's just an Institute. It's just like a face. It's like we were saying earlier that it doesn't, it doesn't matter where it is. It's just like a place of confinement. Like it might as well be on Mars.

It doesn't, it's not their home. It's not where they want to be. They're held there against their will and terrible things are being subjected to them. And it's just this sort of cavernous space where it's like, you know, anything could be out there. So it's and like king is sort of good at dropping these like weird little things.

That like some, something is happening, like beyond the veil, a weird little detail that I love about 11 22 63 is the yellow card man. And how the like card keeps changing because there's like too many timelines and I'm like, oh, that's such a weird little creepy detail. And like the hum from the, from the back half, uh, or ward a, uh, is.

That it keeps coming back. And then when you find out what it actually is, is like so powerful and like upsetting, but like such a good detail, you know, obviously he's, he's the best at this specific sort of thing, but he's really good at dropping little, little things that once you find out,

when, when, once you and the characters find out what they are, there's this sort of like Mike drop kind of moment that like hits you very powerfully.

And this book has a couple of.

[00:15:11] Deanna Chapman: He's also really good at making you care about characters, who aren't going to make it to that.

[00:15:17] Laura Di Girolamo: Yes, for sure. You like, you know, they're cannon fodder and you're like, oh, I like them. Like, you feel bad for every, every time it happens, even though, you know, it's going to happen, even when they're Like minor, you know, throw away characters or they would be in the hands of, uh, I guess someone else.

[00:15:35] Deanna Chapman: Like Maureen, for example, she is someone who you're not really supposed to look too closely at. She's one of the. Cleaners who goes in and like cleans the kids' rooms and stuff. And she's sort of just on the staff, but she's not like one of the nurses or doctors, or, you know, like Mrs. who is in charge, she's just sort of there.

And she ends up playing such a crucial role in the story, you know, king sort of subverts that like, oh, you're not really supposed to know too much about this character or care too much about them because of. They have at the beginning of the book, but we learn all about her life. Luke tries to help her and does help her.

And then she returns the favor, but then also commit suicide. And it's just so much for this, you know, character who isn't necessarily a main character.

[00:16:34] Laura Di Girolamo: Um, Yeah. And she's, she's definitely like, it would be easy to make this character very like one dimensionally villainous and he, he kind of does with, um, Frieda, is that the characters name? Who's like just a terrible sociopathic person. Like sometimes he just

[00:16:52] Deanna Chapman: There's a few there's like Gladys and a couple others.

[00:16:55] Laura Di Girolamo: Right. Yeah.

So he, sometimes he just, he will occasionally fall into the trope of just making people like sociopathically evil, but she is, she's also a good example. You know, I'm a character whose sort of terrible motivations have many, many layers, and they're all very believable and very like understandable in a way like, you know, American medical care is no joke and things are bad and, you know, he needs, you, you there's, it's not outside the realm of possibility that people would do things and often do that are more.

Terrible when you are in desperate sort of straits. So, but the fact that you have characters who are telekinetic and can kind of peel back the layers of why people are doing things is really interesting. And Yeah. It was like a shameless self plug, but I'm working on like a screenwriting project right now that has a telepathic character.

Um, but it only happens unintentionally and she just picks up on people. The reason why I like thinking about telekinetic characters is that you, it, especially when you hear them thinking about you, that adds a whole sort of other layer. About what people expect of you and being the kind of person that you expect them to be, which is interesting.

And this book doesn't do this as much as much, but what it does do is sort of being able to look at people and knowing when they're lying to you and knowing exactly what they're lying to you about, which can be, you know, I, especially for like a child. Or children in the book, but I mean, Luke is, uh, you know, pretty pretty like for a person that goes through all this, like an incredibly headed character.

I can't believe this kid is like so well adjusted after all this, but, uh, and during all this it's, it's like Danny in the shining. It's like, and I, I, this is it. It's more in the book than the movie where he, he see, he hears things from people's minds that He really shouldn't be. And for children that children have no way to parse.

Yeah. It's like, it's interesting that he like goes and then learns everything about like, uh, credit stuff or, uh, everything about her financial situation to help her because he's like, oh, right, okay. That's what it is. Like he never would have known that if he was just like a normal kid, you know,

[00:19:15] Deanna Chapman: Yeah. He definitely had abilities that just weren't related to TP and TK as they call it with the telepathics and the telekinetic. And, you know, he was literally a kid who was like getting ready for college, basically at like 12 years old.

[00:19:35] Laura Di Girolamo: Right, but he's like, not, I like that. He's not like dorky. He's like a, he's like a nice, smart, like, funny well-adjusted kid. He's like, cool. He has friends.

[00:19:47] Deanna Chapman: He does a very nice job, you know, sort of making Luke this well-rounded character. And then you have a character like Avery who comes in a little later in the book and he is so young. He's like, not even in the same. Relative age group as the rest of the characters and king easily could have made him super, super annoying, but instead he was sort of just like everyone's little brother who yes is annoying at times, but wasn't like crying and wailing all the time.

You know, obviously there are kids who do cry in this book for good reason because of the things that happen. And, you know, even when. Luke finds out that his parents were killed. He has his moment and then remains composed enough to do something about it.

[00:20:39] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah. He's, he's like remarkably composed. It's like pretty, I mean, I like he's, he's a genius in the way that like, he's just sort of developmentally beyond his ears, I guess. Like, He is more or less like a 20 five-year-olds in like, you know, but his 12, I normally really don't like, uh, she's going to say children in horror, but, uh, I mean sometimes, but like that, that idea of, well, the little kid character comes in and then they're the sort of, they're the sort of innocence that everyone has to collectively protect like, um, aliens and so on things like.

But, um, I've never really been a fan of that. I guess it always just sort of feels lazy. And also because the kids are often kind of annoying or like too precocious or too cute, or like, you know, just, um, unlike normal children are unlike normal little kids, but he, you know, Stephen King has obviously spent a lot of time around children and is obviously, yeah.

In an incredibly assist, uh, OBS observant person because he kind of he's, he's good at understanding the way that the sort of sometimes nonsensical way that children's brains work, where it's like, it's like, they're not always just screaming and crying. And like sometimes they just say and do weird things.

Or sometimes, sometimes they're just goofy and strange and funny. And then that's why they're like, Um, so it it's, it comes from that sort of naturalness. I think that he's like a good character that he's not like being forced to be like too, too cute or too, you know, wise beyond his years or something like that.

Like dropping sort of Sage, uh, tidbits on everyone or anything like that. But, uh, now he feels like a normal kid, like in the same way that the kids in it feels like normal 12 year olds. I thought that like, movies did that, especially, well, like casting kids who were really good with each other so that they didn't feel like, oh God, now I have to watch a movie about 12 year olds.

So, uh, like it.

was like, oh, I mean, they're, they're, they're interesting. Twelve-year-olds to watch because they remind me of being 12 years old because they're like 12, they're like the 12 year olds that I used to know. So, and Avery is like the five-year-olds that I know, I, you know, on the weekend I spent time with a five-year-old.

Pretty, you know, a much better situation in life than Avery, but like, definitely like, yeah, they're like annoying and they bother you and you don't want them to bother you, but then they do and like, say really cute things when they're not trying to be. And you're like, oh, that's nice. So they're like tiny humans.

They're just brains. Aren't done being formed. So I think if you write them as such, they can be good.

[00:23:27] Deanna Chapman: Yeah, absolutely. I think too, with this one, you have so many. Types of kids coming from different states, different backgrounds. It's not like the loser's club where they're all from this 10 block space or something in dairy. It's probably a little more than that. We'll give dairy a little credit for being a little bigger, but you know, they're all from the same area with the exception of, you know, a new kid in town or something like that.

And here. You're just throwing these kids together and you have no idea if they're going to get along and you even have characters who come in, other kids who come in and they're just like ready to start a fight with everyone. And then you have all of these different dynamic personalities. The fact that it still works in the end and especially in the end, which we will definitely talk about soon.

You know, you just see these kids going through the motions so much in the whole, like middle section of this book, because like I said, you kind of spend the beginning following Tim's journey and, you know, once we kind of move on to the Institute, You kind of know that if king spent so much time introducing this one character, it's going to come back around because that would definitely be like a very bad thing to leave.

Open-ended if you didn't return to Tim's story and just the pacing of this, I think works pretty well. The beginning maybe could have gone by a little faster for me, but otherwise everything with the kids. And then once you get into the third act of this book, It just really ramps up and I did not want to put it down.

[00:25:14] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah. I was very like, as I was reading the book, I mean, like, I was kind of like, this is, I like, this is good, but like, this is like, I'm like, I know exactly like, this is, this is a fairly boiler plate story, I think in terms of eventually where it's going to go and the beats of it. But I was like, also, I desperately need to find out how this ends and I need to finish this right now.

So I think I've read it very, very fast because I was like, so ingrained. And then by the end, I was like, okay, you got me book. It's a Ted's Testament. That King's skills as a writer that likes something that's like, like a story about, you know, kids that are expired. Like it's the whole, the whole sort of beats of the story or things that have happened a whole bunch of times.

But I mean, number one, king invented a bunch of those storytelling beats and number two it's He's he can just, he can write any sort of story about underdog. Who are rising up against like a corrupt authority figure and triumphing with sadness along the way. And it will be amazing and epic and so good because of all of the things that we've been talking about, but it's, yeah, I didn't expect to like it as much as I thought I kind of just got it because it was on, it was for available on my library and I was like, sure, I'll read the new Stephen King, I guess.

And then I was like, and then I finished it in like under a week.

[00:26:42] Deanna Chapman: He's written so many kids over the years in particular that, you know, even if he does sort of recycle similar ideas, it's usually. You know, a long period of time in between those things happening, but he's put kids in so many different settings that any time a story is going to heavily involve kids at this point, I kind of just trust him to do his thing, because it really seems like, you know, coming of age stories are stories.

One of his sweet spots, you know, obviously with the way Kerry ends, that's a little different, but then you have, you know, what happens in Firestarter what happens with the loser's club? You have the body kids, you have kids in cell, you have Jake in the dark tower and all of these kids go through. Various traumatic things to varying degrees, even, you know, the kids in pet cemetery.

I mean, you know, he's just so good at giving you these kids from different backgrounds, even if they're mostly from Maine, you know, you look at the loser's club and they come from broken families, but very different broken family.

[00:27:57] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah, for sure. And it's like, it's, it's in a way it's almost similar with this book because it's like, they didn't necessarily all come from broken families, but their families have all been broken because of, you know, they're like they only have each other basically. So. They automatically turned to each other.

And it's very much like, you know, like something like, you know, a prison drama for a bit, but it's with kids because they're very like, oh, there's, there's the back half, you know, it's like, so that's like the bad part of the prison. And there's like the way that they talk about their time there and the way that they talk about being there.

And, you know, the cafeteria being sort of like a center where things have. It's like, you know, very reminiscent of like a prison drama or something like, you know, Shawshank, redemption, even so, but it's with kids, but yeah.

[00:28:46] Deanna Chapman: you were saying that I was like, okay, so this is like fire starter meets Shawshank meets it pretty much.

[00:28:53] Laura Di Girolamo: Yes, totally meets Carey.

[00:28:57] Deanna Chapman: Yes. And I love that he can still take these things that we're familiar with from his previous works and put them together in a way. Doesn't feel recycled. It's like, obviously the Institute feels a lot like the shop and wanting to, you know, kidnap a kid and pull apart her family and, you know, then the kids have powers like carries.

Then you have, you know, Quote, unquote prison break, like in Shasha. So he just kind of pulls out all of these amazing pieces from stories he's already done and puts them together in a new way. It's like putting a Stephen King puzzle together almost. He's like, okay, I'll take from here and here and here.

And we'll see what happens.

[00:29:45] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah, there has to be like Stephen King Madlibs, like in Maine, a haunted, uh, Airbnb. Like his, you know, but, uh, there's. Yeah. Like it's something like, like Kings sort of like universe is like so huge that you can, like, you, like writers can like do this and like make something like castle rock or it's like just an amalgamation of a bunch of different Stephen King thing.

And you're like, oh, this feels derivative of Stephen King. And then you're like, oh, that is that's the point though is like, it is to feel to, I loved castle rock, but it is like, It's like, I just, you know, imagine like the, the, the, the writer who reviews it and like, doesn't know it's inspired by it. And he's like, they're obviously ripping off Stephen King, like a well, but it's like, they kind of are, he just kind of gave them, but like with his permission, he was just like, yeah.

Have at it. And I think like, You know, I think he likes that he must love things like fanfiction. Yeah.

Like he can go back to those and I like, he likes doing it. Like he has all those references to dairy and all of his newer books and like references to, you know, dark tower stuff, uh, throughout all the time.

So like, I think he even likes just playing Madlibs with his own stuff. Cause there's, there's, you know, a 40 years worth of it.

[00:31:08] Deanna Chapman: Honestly, who could blame him?

[00:31:10] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah, right. Like I would too. I'd be like, I'd have so much fun just up there. And my haunted, uh, Victorian castle typing away with my characters.

[00:31:20] Deanna Chapman: He's built such a massive and also screwed up world that, you know, it just draws people to his work. And obviously I've read in. Almost everything up through this. So far, the only things I kind of said no to where the children of the corn movies past the third one, I was like, nobody is asking for this. I don't want to do this.

So, you know, that was kind of my limit there, but having gone through almost every single book of his now I only have a couple more, that will be new to me. He has done such an amazing job building up these fictional towns, building up mid world, building up all sorts of different things. Ultimately all connect together in one way or another that, you know, even though something like the Institute, isn't explicitly linked to other titles, just the fact that we find out it's in Maine, you're like, oh, okay.

This almost feels like a breadcrumb that he could pick up again later down the line. And we see how global this is too. It's not just in Maine because. You know, at the end there, the kids get together and they're holding hands and they're communicating with other kids in other institutes in other countries.

And you're just like, oh, this is massive. But before we get to that point, you know, he does such a good job of building up all of these. Relationships through Luke's eyes, you know, him and Maureen, him and Kalisha. You see collegia, Nick's sort of friendship through Luke's eyes as well. And you know, everything with Avery too, it's just building and building and building so that when you hit that third act in the book, it just explodes in a spectacular fashion.

[00:33:20] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah, it's pretty, like, very much like overlook hotel, exploding, like levels of just like we're blowing up this like toxic shit from the inside kind of thing. And it's like, And it's like, and it's got those like high notes. You know, no bull sacrifice and like very, very close calls and people almost don't make it.

And like, it's just, it's like so big and cinematic and like, so cathartic it's that it's that also, it's sort of like these kids have been being pushed and pushed and pushed, you know, for many of them beyond their breaking point. And then you're like, so like, and then some of them are dying and you're like, man, something has to give.

So it's like, I think he knows. That it just needed to be as like huge as possible because such horrible things are happening and it's like, they need a really big revenge. It's like the end of Inglorious bastards. It's like, wouldn't it be great if this is like, how can I, how people could get revenge?

Like just blow it all up with everyone inside and just end it forever. Like at the end of the shining. Yeah. It's like so well, And it is very large and very huge. And that, that, that the idea of them talking to other kids that are like this and other parts of the world is also what made me think of the Chrysalis, because yeah, it's like suddenly you're your worldview for these kids in Institute is so small because it's just this at the Institute and in the Chrysalis, it's just, they're like tiny little community.

And then all of a sudden you realize that not only is there like a huge world outside of where you already are. I mean, the kids in the Institute already know that. They don't know that there's this huge sort of other world of other people like them, that's beyond where they are and that it's not, you're not punished for having this you're, you know, accepted or accepted amongst this community.

So it's, it's also very like cathartic in that way, because it's like, you know, you know, the kids that are leftover at the end will be alone and that they're always going to have each other's backs and it's, you know, that nice moment of like, you know, at the, at the, you know, at the end of a lot of S K.

Novels where you know, that people are going to like, even if they fall out of touch or even if people aren't in each other's lives, they're always going to sort of think fondly of each other and everybody's going to be okay. And it's nice. And to think of sometimes that the heroes win in some cases. So it's a, you know, a good ending in that.

[00:35:41] Deanna Chapman: Yeah. I want to backtrack a little to Luke's escape, which could not have happened without Maureen. And it's not quite her last act. The video is more so her last act that we get to see, but she helps him escape and he. In his escape. He goes through so much because he's like hiding on this train. He's trying to avoid detection, but one of the workers who is coming to like unload some stuff from the box car finds him and Luke is just so out of it because he's so hungry.

He's so thirsty. This guy doesn't really know if he should believe what Luke is saying, but he gives him like, you know, some water, a little snack, and he shows. Compassion that. No one has shown him other than Maureen and the kids the entire time. And even then, it's just the fact that this stranger is not ratting him out basically to where.

Okay. We believe in that moment that Luke is going to make it no matter what. And even when he gets off the train and runs and like runs into the post and gives himself quite the knock on the head, you know, he is still determined to get his story out there, get the truth out there and he knows he's still in danger and we know it too.

They give you hope and then they kind of take it away and then they give it back again. Once he ends up with Wendy and Tim at the police station and they still try to take it away again when Mrs. Six B and all of her goons and the unwilling doctor show up.

[00:37:26] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah. It's like, it has to be so earned, like the fat, like, you know, the, as Wayne's world would say the mega fund, happy ending. If you're going to do the ma, if you're going to do the mega fund, happy ending, you have to have it feel very earned. And in one way, it's very earned, like what I was saying, because these kids have suffered so much and it's earned because Luke suffers so much and he suffers.

So. And this scene that it's almost like, Yeah. it's like, he goes on this like very adult journey. That's like, definitely something, no, like 12 year olds should be doing. And it's like another coming of age story in a way, because it's like, not only has he has to grow up very fast at the Institute, he's going to have to grow up very fast in order to like save all of his friends basically, and, you know, go through this like very sort of scary process where he could be killed by a whole bunch of people that are trying to kill.

But, uh, it's, it's like if you're going to have an ending, that's like, so, so like you people don't make it and so on, but like for the hero to get away and for it to feel. For a revenge that caliber or amending of that caliber where, you know, the, the good guys win and the bad guys lose, you have to make the good guys try really hard.

And then king thinks is good. Guys try really, really hard. And even then a lot of them don't make it. But when he does happier endings, they, they are like this where they, they, for the most part where they feel like these characters have gone through a lot in these characters, I haven't been able to really have happiness until sort of this moment.

So it's, it feels like he puts like evils dressed. Sometimes. It's not always like, like even at the end of the clown at the end of it gets killed at the end. So it's, it gets killed forever at the end and they banished Pennywise forever and it's been coming back for thousands of years. So he he's very big in the belief that like, you know, there is evil and it's perm, it's permeating.

It'll, you know, it'll be here forever, but until one day it will. And people coming together can sort of people coming together and people coming together in this book, especially is what leads to sort of the culmination of the end of the novel. And somebody finally, finally believing this kid, which is great.

[00:39:36] Deanna Chapman: Yeah. And honestly, that shootout kind of caught me by surprise at the end there, where they show up at the police station and they just start shooting everyone. And it's like, And the point of return, basically for all of those characters who are tied to the Institute because, you know, they take away your hope again, you know, you're just kind of like, man, can this kid catch a break?

[00:40:05] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah. Like none of these poor kids can catch a break. Yeah, it does. It does give you a lot of, like, it's not too much. It never feels like a, you know, gratuitous torture porn where you're like, these kids are suffering too much. It stops just short of that because it's king. And because you, you hope that like a story of this sort of evil that has, it has to have a counterbalance and you hope that it will have that in the end, but yeah, it's, you can't give it back and take it away so many times for you to not just give it to me.

It's like, it'd be cruel, you know?

[00:40:38] Deanna Chapman: Absolutely. And you know, that doesn't mean there isn't more loss because we know that Avery stays behind and because he's the youngest character. We've come to learn about in this. It's still a heartbreaking to read that and to know that Luke and Tim aren't going to be able to save every.

[00:41:00] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah. Like I had a feeling that he was not going to last Avery and I was, I just the direction that the story was going. And I knew it was going to happen. And I was like, I've mentioned before, I'm not a huge fan of, you know, the like precocious kid with a gift in my whore, but it's still very touching because it's like, it's such a, it's like such a, you know, genuine sort of innocent sacrifice that you're like, you, can't not be sort of touched by.

Um, that it's like, it's sort of even like me, like hardened horror person who has consumed lots of this, lots of these types of books was still like, oh, this is still hard to read. It's a great moment. But it is very, yeah, it's very difficult.

[00:41:49] Deanna Chapman: Yeah. I just really came to love a bunch of the characters in this more than I think I expected to at the beginning. Like I didn't expect. Tim all that much, because he wasn't super exciting when we first meet him, you know, he just ends up in this sort of sleepy town. And even though, you know, he's going to come back into play, you don't necessarily know to what.

And I think, you know, just the way this book ends with him, sort of taking all the kids in him and Wendy and literally buying a house and having them all stay there. And then they go their separate ways, which again is kind of like. The kids grow up. They go their separate ways. And then, you know, 27 years later here, they come meeting up again.

And, you know, in that one of the kids dies as well. So it really has shades of a lot of King's previous works. And I was just impressed with this one. You know, I didn't know what to expect. A lot of his newer stuff has been very mixed as far as genres go, you know, it's not all like straight horror, light.

Some of the early, early stuff, you have things like. 11 22 63 being this sort of alternate history thing. You have the bill Hodges trilogy, which is sort of, you know, these hard-boiled crime novels, and then you have something like elevation where you returned to castle rock, and then you have this. And it's just been a really good variety for a lot of the stuff in like the last decade or so I would say even if it isn't like strictly horror stuff,

[00:43:35] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah. Like a lot of them are just sort of like very long character studies, even like 11 22 63 is like half, half historical novel and half like, you know, quiet, romantic drama about a time traveling man, and his, you know, relationships and it's maybe it's, you know, something about getting older and something about looking sort of.

On experiences, um, that is sort of made, I guess, his, his, his sort of newer novels are, I guess, more willing to play with sort of different genres and different ideas, um, and was so bringing in and mixing. You know, his, his previous sort of themes, but yeah, I think he's, he's a little more, uh, sort of transcending the same kind of straight horror genre that he used to do minus, you know, green mile and that, those sorts of novels.

Yeah. And the newer stuff is I guess, a little hit or miss. Um, but this one was, yeah. I, like I mentioned, I wasn't expecting to like it as much. I just sort of got it from the library on a whim. Um, I wasn't especially. Impressed with any of the Mercedes novels after the first one. So I was kind of like low expectations kind of thing.

And I was like, oh, is this going to be like, is this, is this going to be like an MK ultra thing? And it kind of was, but I was still really impressed. I never really should have doubted him, but after, after dream catcher, I'm always slightly suspicious that he'll do one like that again.

[00:45:07] Deanna Chapman: Yeah. See for me, it was sleeping beauties that I did not enjoy.

[00:45:11] Laura Di Girolamo: Oh, I never even finished that one. You were talking about. How earlier about how you've read it. You S you drew the line at, um, the, the, the, the children of the corn sequels, and I kind of drew the line at finishing sleeping beauty.

[00:45:25] Deanna Chapman: I get that. If it weren't for this podcast, I don't know if I would have finished it. Usually I'm not someone who likes to not finish books, but yeah, I agree with you on dream catcher too. Not one of my favorite ones, but Laura, is there anything you want to plug? I forgot to have you do it at the beginning of the episode, before we wrap up with some final writings and thoughts here.

[00:45:46] Laura Di Girolamo: Well, I guess I'm not super actively working on anything right now, except the projects that I mentioned earlier. Um, it's a sort of. Uh, creature feature with romantic elements called hearing things about a telekinetic girl who has a lot of trust issues who finds a squid, uh, creature in the toilet of her best friend's cottage with her ex that she has not seen in a long time.

And they together have to figure out what to do about this monster, uh, while they also find out that there's a lot of monsters in the lake. So it's a scraped screenplay that I wrote that, uh, We are in sort of the development phase four and are hoping to get some Canadian, uh, art grant money to make this movie.

Uh, and then, yeah, and then eventually, hopefully it'll come out in a couple of years and then I'll get to plug the actual movie, which will be very exciting. But right now that's sort of the big thing that I'm kind of working on. Um, and then I'm just on Twitter at Laura_Digi. If you want to occasionally read thoughts that I have about movies, I'm watching.

[00:46:51] Deanna Chapman: Love that. And I like to wrap up with ratings. I ended up giving this a four out of five, like I said, really enjoyed it more than I think I expected to going into it. And, you know, with some of these newer books, I've been going into them, not knowing any. About them really, which, you know, with the other books that I hadn't read, which was 95% of them before starting this podcast, you know, things about Kerry and pet cemetery and it, and the shining before you even read them, because they've just been around for so long now and, you know, have had multiple adaptations for some of them.

And it's one of those things where it's kind of refreshing to go into something, not knowing anything.

[00:47:36] Laura Di Girolamo: Yeah, there's, there's such a mythos attached to like all this other, you know, the stuff that's been in the public Headspace for like 30 years that like to have brand new stuff is like, you genuinely don't know what you're going to get, but, uh, yeah, this one was surprisingly good. I think I might have to, I might do a 3.5 out of five only because I do feel like this is a story that I was that the structure of the story.

It was something that I can't. I am very familiar with and I'm maybe, I don't know. Maybe I just wanted something to be a little bit less formulaic, but I loved the characters. I loved the pacing. It was like, so, so breakneck and like I mentioned, I read it really quick. Um, and it's just, it has so much of that, like Stephen King charm, that I just enjoyed the experience of reading it, even though it was, you know, it's like watching a haunted house movie, like, you know, you know, the beats, so you're going to get them a haunted house movie, but in the hands of someone that's really good at that haunted house movie, you know, that whatever you're getting is going to be really good, at least, um, for all those other sort of hallmarks of their craft.

But, uh, yeah, I enjoyed it. Like I said, more than I thought I would.

[00:48:47] Deanna Chapman: Yeah, well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on the. And, you know, I don't really know what's coming up just yet. Once I'm caught up with everything, but I'm sure I will be concocting a plan soon because I love planning ahead. And you know, anyone who has seen the spreadsheet as guest will know what I'm talking about,

[00:49:09] Laura Di Girolamo: It's a big spreadsheet.

[00:49:10] Deanna Chapman: it's getting smaller, I'm hiding everything that's done. So it's less overwhelming.

[00:49:14] Laura Di Girolamo: smart, smart.

[00:49:17] Deanna Chapman: But, yeah. Thank you again. It was a blast talking to you about this one. I feel like not a lot of people talk about the Institute, so I'm glad we were able to contribute a conversation to this book.

[00:49:28] Laura Di Girolamo: Me too.